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DRAGON88
Dragoon
Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 1020
City: Portland
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 Posted: Feb 17, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo wrote: | | mc was manufacturing some crazy amount of boats the last few years, which is what led to them almost going bankrupt. and even if the boat was quality, a huge part of it is service. nautiques rule and always will. and a free x-star would be great, but when you have to purchase, go nautique, or something with a PCM engine. |
CC makes a great product, as does Malibu and MC. Sorry, but there is not a whole hell of a lot of difference between Indmar and PCM engines, they're both very basic marinized GM blocks with stand-alone efi of some sort.
It all comes down to personal preference, we're talking about hand made boats. Every brand will have a few lemons, in my personal experience some manufacturers have different weak spots, but overall they're very comparative.
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mojo
Backside 180
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 2240
City: mob town
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| Posted: Feb 17, 2010 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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there's a large difference in pcm engines compared to indmar. one being that pcm's work, and indmars don't. and mc manufactured too many boats and their quality control dropped. i'll still ride behind one any day of the week, but purchase never again. i mean did they really need to invest their money into a 30' cruiser that costs 300,000$ that money could have gone into r&d for current or future wake/ski boats-where they make their $ nautique is stacked-harf, murray, byerly, thomas, b. soven, copeland-durham, lariche, jd, mckee, watson, wensink. i mean c'mon. plus their 230 drives like a caddi with 4500lbs in it.
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DRAGON88
Dragoon
Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 1020
City: Portland
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| mojo wrote: | | there's a large difference in pcm engines compared to indmar. one being that pcm's work, and indmars don't. and mc manufactured too many boats and their quality control dropped. i'll still ride behind one any day of the week, but purchase never again. i mean did they really need to invest their money into a 30' cruiser that costs 300,000$ that money could have gone into r&d for current or future wake/ski boats-where they make their $ nautique is stacked-harf, murray, byerly, thomas, b. soven, copeland-durham, lariche, jd, mckee, watson, wensink. i mean c'mon. plus their 230 drives like a caddi with 4500lbs in it. |
Seriously?  My Indmar in the VLX is doing just fine, knock on wood, it runs flawlessly. If anything the GT-40 in the Sport Nautique had far more engine issues. (OMG A PCM!!!) I understand that you're bitter about your boat or whatever, but it's completely clouding your rationality. They're basically all the same engines, with slightly different peripherals.
I must say however that I am impressed that at 19 you could afford a brand new X2, and the repair bill. I'm still nowhere close to being in that situation financially.
As far as your claim of pro riders, how many of those guys get PAID by CC again to ride behind their boats? CC makes nice boats for sure, I'm not debating that, but your claim that they're the best ever is childish.
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mojo
Backside 180
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 2240
City: mob town
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 12:16 am Post subject: |
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the gt-40 is actually a good engine. if you want to take a look at where indmar or pcm stand w/ jd power feel free to let me know who's been below average for a while and who's been winning awards. not that means anything really, but it has some degree of truth. and after being a die hard mc man and then finally purchasing one i was let down beyond all belief. and i after getting a nautique the quality is much better. but yes you are right it basically comes down to the buyer. it's the old rolls royce or bentley debate. do i wish i could combine an x-star and a 210? hell yes i do. anyways, it's all puffery.
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DRAGON88
Dragoon
Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 1020
City: Portland
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Oh, if you want to talk about JD Powers, why don't you take a peak and see who won in 2005...
I'll give you a hint, it wasn't PCM, or Mercruiser... 
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EJazzle
faceplant
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 4776
City: Tequesta/orlando
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 1:07 am Post subject: |
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mojo, can you explain an indmar engine ran purely in saltwater with over 700 hours that still runs flawlessly??
a natique with no weight compared to my 383 hammerhead fully weighted wedge down, is a dog. Sorry to the xstar lovers, but those things with some weight in them are dogs too. They do have the saltwater edition which is a + for sure.
MC service is high above any other boat company around. At least in FL...
CC was also almost bankrupt. I talked to a guy who worked in their sales dpt. They fired 75% of their staff and moved him into the manufacturing. Actually building the boats. I went by there on a Thursday at 2 o'clock and the place looked like it was deserted with racks full of boats that looked like they were sitting there for months. Take a guess why? The economy. I am sure that at all of these dealers the same thing was going on.
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deepcove
Backside 180
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 526
City: Vancouver
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | mojo, can you explain an indmar engine ran purely in saltwater with over 700 hours that still runs flawlessly?? |
My Indmar has 748 salt water hrs.....Mojo...when should I expect to have problems?
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rockhouse
Ollie
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 62
City: TX
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Well i've already set-up a lake test for the boat. I'm bringing my skate and i'm gonna beast it and freeze my nuts off for about 5 minutes and see how the wake feels.
I'll post some pics and let yall know if i get it........i'm stoked! 
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mojo
Backside 180
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City: mob town
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EJazzle
faceplant
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 4776
City: Tequesta/orlando
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| EJazzle wrote: | mojo, can you explain an indmar engine ran purely in saltwater with over 700 hours that still runs flawlessly??
a natique with no weight compared to my 383 hammerhead fully weighted wedge down, is a dog. Sorry to the xstar lovers, but those things with some weight in them are dogs too. They do have the saltwater edition which is a + for sure.
MC service is high above any other boat company around. At least in FL...
CC was also almost bankrupt. I talked to a guy who worked in their sales dpt. They fired 75% of their staff and moved him into the manufacturing. Actually building the boats. I went by there on a Thursday at 2 o'clock and the place looked like it was deserted with racks full of boats that looked like they were sitting there for months. Take a guess why? The economy. I am sure that at all of these dealers the same thing was going on. |
idk if you saw it mojo^^
My friend has a brand new 210 that he uses in saltwater, put it this way, his boat is in the shop more than its on the water.
what kinds of boats does JD compare? A lower end master craft compared to a high end nautique could skew that. You want the data? you gotta pay JD.
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stu
Frontside 180
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 369
City: bradenton
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo wrote: | | . i mean did they really need to invest their money into a 30' cruiser that costs 300,000$ that money could have gone into r&d for current or future wake/ski boats-where they make their $ nautique is stacked-harf, murray, byerly, thomas, b. soven, copeland-durham, lariche, jd, mckee, watson, wensink. i mean c'mon. |
not everyone lives on lakes, they made that boat to try to reach a different audience, trying to expand rather than just stay in wake. Also if your going to go by teams, take a look at mc's team... just as stacked
ejazzle, i had a wakesetter vlx and same thing, i was taking it out once a month to get something fixed. nautique and milibu have great boats but for a very small percent of the people, like i said earlier not everyone lives on lakes and these companies need to adapt
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mojo
Backside 180
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 2240
City: mob town
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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as far as salt water, if you are going to use your boat in it, you need closed loop cooling and to flush it after ever day of use. my buddy just got rid of his 2000 210 and didn't have it and still no issues. but regardless if you ride in brackish water or salty water you're asking for trouble w/o closed loop, new anodes, flushing, and rinsing w/ fresh water as well.
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Classy
Classified
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 2624
City: Kooksville
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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mojo, Come up to knoxville. I will get you a tour at the factory...Then you can see if you think their quality has gone down. You can say they pumped out too many boats. But boat companies do not produce more boats than are ordered. Why would they? No one wants money laying around...
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DRAGON88
Dragoon
Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 1020
City: Portland
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Classy wrote: | | But boat companies do not produce more boats than are ordered. Why would they? No one wants money laying around... |
Well in 2008 or so it was because they thought that they would be selling a ton of boats, when the boating market completely fell out. (Largely due to the collapse of the real-estate bubble in CA.) No one really saw it coming and as a result there was a ridiculous surplus of boats. Especially MC because their largest dealership Copes went down hard in '08. Boat production also certainly ramped up from say 02-07 year over year. Why do you think CC built a new plant?
mojo, you know the year that your POS X2 was made that had all the Indmar issues? Can you guess who won the JD Powers award for that year? Your personal experience is run of the mill right? So certainly TONS of people had issues and it's unlikely that Indmar won the JD Powers award that year... Right?
It's all about sample size. You can't look at a handful of boats and honestly expect to make accurate conclusions about the thousands of other ones built. That's your problem from the get go, you're making ridiculous generalizations based on very little data.
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Classy
Classified
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 2624
City: Kooksville
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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DRAGON88, I think that was 07. I'm pretty sure 08 is when they started laying people off and slowing down production. and then in 09 is when production stopped for weeks at a time. But all those boats that were laying around. They sold to people directly from the factory. Alot of people around here god killer deals that year.
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deepcove
Backside 180
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 526
City: Vancouver
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | deecove, i'd say when you hit 1000 hours. |
That is good news cause my buddy had to get the top end of his PCM powered Nautique rebuit at 800 hrs....so I guess I made the right choice with Indmar.
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scott a
"a" is for angel
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 4126
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| Posted: Feb 18, 2010 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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hmm...pretty sure boat sales started declining in 07. Dealers started closing shop as 07 progressed, and 08 was when it got real ugly.
As far as the rest of this CC > all stuff, meh. This is the exact same crap I would hear from customers that went to the Nautique dealership before my shop. Whatever. Malibu, CC and MC all make a solid product and it's usually the service department makes or breaks the experience. Everyone has their bad apples.
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Classy
Classified
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 2624
City: Kooksville
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| Posted: Feb 19, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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scott a, That is very true. The dealer you work will is just as important, if not more important than the brand of boat you purchase.
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mojo
Backside 180
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 2240
City: mob town
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| Posted: Feb 19, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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just don't go to baws
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mojo
Backside 180
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 2240
City: mob town
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| Posted: Feb 19, 2010 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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and like i mentioned, the experiences i've had with post 96 mc's has been awful. the experience i've had with 80's+ nautiques has been awesome.
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