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DRAGON88
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Joined: 01 May 2004
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City: Portland

PostPosted: Feb 17, 2010 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo wrote:
mc was manufacturing some crazy amount of boats the last few years, which is what led to them almost going bankrupt. and even if the boat was quality, a huge part of it is service. nautiques rule and always will. and a free x-star would be great, but when you have to purchase, go nautique, or something with a PCM engine.


CC makes a great product, as does Malibu and MC. Sorry, but there is not a whole hell of a lot of difference between Indmar and PCM engines, they're both very basic marinized GM blocks with stand-alone efi of some sort.

It all comes down to personal preference, we're talking about hand made boats. Every brand will have a few lemons, in my personal experience some manufacturers have different weak spots, but overall they're very comparative.

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mojo
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PostPosted: Feb 17, 2010 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there's a large difference in pcm engines compared to indmar. one being that pcm's work, and indmars don't. and mc manufactured too many boats and their quality control dropped. i'll still ride behind one any day of the week, but purchase never again. i mean did they really need to invest their money into a 30' cruiser that costs 300,000$ that money could have gone into r&d for current or future wake/ski boats-where they make their $ nautique is stacked-harf, murray, byerly, thomas, b. soven, copeland-durham, lariche, jd, mckee, watson, wensink. i mean c'mon. plus their 230 drives like a caddi with 4500lbs in it.
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DRAGON88
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Joined: 01 May 2004
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo wrote:
there's a large difference in pcm engines compared to indmar. one being that pcm's work, and indmars don't. and mc manufactured too many boats and their quality control dropped. i'll still ride behind one any day of the week, but purchase never again. i mean did they really need to invest their money into a 30' cruiser that costs 300,000$ that money could have gone into r&d for current or future wake/ski boats-where they make their $ nautique is stacked-harf, murray, byerly, thomas, b. soven, copeland-durham, lariche, jd, mckee, watson, wensink. i mean c'mon. plus their 230 drives like a caddi with 4500lbs in it.


Seriously? Laughing My Indmar in the VLX is doing just fine, knock on wood, it runs flawlessly. If anything the GT-40 in the Sport Nautique had far more engine issues. (OMG A PCM!!!) I understand that you're bitter about your boat or whatever, but it's completely clouding your rationality. They're basically all the same engines, with slightly different peripherals.


I must say however that I am impressed that at 19 you could afford a brand new X2, and the repair bill. I'm still nowhere close to being in that situation financially.

As far as your claim of pro riders, how many of those guys get PAID by CC again to ride behind their boats? CC makes nice boats for sure, I'm not debating that, but your claim that they're the best ever is childish.

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mojo
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the gt-40 is actually a good engine. if you want to take a look at where indmar or pcm stand w/ jd power feel free to let me know who's been below average for a while and who's been winning awards. not that means anything really, but it has some degree of truth. and after being a die hard mc man and then finally purchasing one i was let down beyond all belief. and i after getting a nautique the quality is much better. but yes you are right it basically comes down to the buyer. it's the old rolls royce or bentley debate. do i wish i could combine an x-star and a 210? hell yes i do. anyways, it's all puffery.
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DRAGON88
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, if you want to talk about JD Powers, why don't you take a peak and see who won in 2005...

I'll give you a hint, it wasn't PCM, or Mercruiser... Wink

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EJazzle
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo, can you explain an indmar engine ran purely in saltwater with over 700 hours that still runs flawlessly??

a natique with no weight compared to my 383 hammerhead fully weighted wedge down, is a dog. Sorry to the xstar lovers, but those things with some weight in them are dogs too. They do have the saltwater edition which is a + for sure.

MC service is high above any other boat company around. At least in FL...

CC was also almost bankrupt. I talked to a guy who worked in their sales dpt. They fired 75% of their staff and moved him into the manufacturing. Actually building the boats. I went by there on a Thursday at 2 o'clock and the place looked like it was deserted with racks full of boats that looked like they were sitting there for months. Take a guess why? The economy. I am sure that at all of these dealers the same thing was going on.

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deepcove
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
mojo, can you explain an indmar engine ran purely in saltwater with over 700 hours that still runs flawlessly??


My Indmar has 748 salt water hrs.....Mojo...when should I expect to have problems?

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rockhouse
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Joined: 14 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well i've already set-up a lake test for the boat. I'm bringing my skate and i'm gonna beast it and freeze my nuts off for about 5 minutes and see how the wake feels.
I'll post some pics and let yall know if i get it........i'm stoked! Very Happy

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mojo
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deecove, i'd say when you hit 1000 hours.

who beat everybody? http://www.jdpower.com/Boats/ratings/ski-wakeboarding-boat-ratings

Inboard EFI Segment
Pleasurecraft Engine Group (PCM) ranks highest in the inboard EFI four-stroke engine segment for a fourth consecutive year, performing particularly well in the fuel economy and lack of engine fumes factors.

http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/JDPAContent/CorpComm/News/content/Releases/pdf/2009023.pdf

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EJazzle
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EJazzle wrote:
mojo, can you explain an indmar engine ran purely in saltwater with over 700 hours that still runs flawlessly??

a natique with no weight compared to my 383 hammerhead fully weighted wedge down, is a dog. Sorry to the xstar lovers, but those things with some weight in them are dogs too. They do have the saltwater edition which is a + for sure.

MC service is high above any other boat company around. At least in FL...

CC was also almost bankrupt. I talked to a guy who worked in their sales dpt. They fired 75% of their staff and moved him into the manufacturing. Actually building the boats. I went by there on a Thursday at 2 o'clock and the place looked like it was deserted with racks full of boats that looked like they were sitting there for months. Take a guess why? The economy. I am sure that at all of these dealers the same thing was going on.

idk if you saw it mojo^^

My friend has a brand new 210 that he uses in saltwater, put it this way, his boat is in the shop more than its on the water.

what kinds of boats does JD compare? A lower end master craft compared to a high end nautique could skew that. You want the data? you gotta pay JD. Laughing

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stu
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Joined: 30 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo wrote:
. i mean did they really need to invest their money into a 30' cruiser that costs 300,000$ that money could have gone into r&d for current or future wake/ski boats-where they make their $ nautique is stacked-harf, murray, byerly, thomas, b. soven, copeland-durham, lariche, jd, mckee, watson, wensink. i mean c'mon.


not everyone lives on lakes, they made that boat to try to reach a different audience, trying to expand rather than just stay in wake. Also if your going to go by teams, take a look at mc's team... just as stacked

ejazzle, i had a wakesetter vlx and same thing, i was taking it out once a month to get something fixed. nautique and milibu have great boats but for a very small percent of the people, like i said earlier not everyone lives on lakes and these companies need to adapt

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mojo
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as far as salt water, if you are going to use your boat in it, you need closed loop cooling and to flush it after ever day of use. my buddy just got rid of his 2000 210 and didn't have it and still no issues. but regardless if you ride in brackish water or salty water you're asking for trouble w/o closed loop, new anodes, flushing, and rinsing w/ fresh water as well.
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Classy
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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City: Kooksville

PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo, Come up to knoxville. I will get you a tour at the factory...Then you can see if you think their quality has gone down. You can say they pumped out too many boats. But boat companies do not produce more boats than are ordered. Why would they? No one wants money laying around...
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DRAGON88
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Classy wrote:
But boat companies do not produce more boats than are ordered. Why would they? No one wants money laying around...



Well in 2008 or so it was because they thought that they would be selling a ton of boats, when the boating market completely fell out. (Largely due to the collapse of the real-estate bubble in CA.) No one really saw it coming and as a result there was a ridiculous surplus of boats. Especially MC because their largest dealership Copes went down hard in '08. Boat production also certainly ramped up from say 02-07 year over year. Why do you think CC built a new plant?

mojo, you know the year that your POS X2 was made that had all the Indmar issues? Can you guess who won the JD Powers award for that year? Your personal experience is run of the mill right? So certainly TONS of people had issues and it's unlikely that Indmar won the JD Powers award that year... Right?


It's all about sample size. You can't look at a handful of boats and honestly expect to make accurate conclusions about the thousands of other ones built. That's your problem from the get go, you're making ridiculous generalizations based on very little data.

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Classy
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DRAGON88, I think that was 07. I'm pretty sure 08 is when they started laying people off and slowing down production. and then in 09 is when production stopped for weeks at a time. But all those boats that were laying around. They sold to people directly from the factory. Alot of people around here god killer deals that year.
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deepcove
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
deecove, i'd say when you hit 1000 hours.


That is good news cause my buddy had to get the top end of his PCM powered Nautique rebuit at 800 hrs....so I guess I made the right choice with Indmar.

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scott a
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PostPosted: Feb 18, 2010 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm...pretty sure boat sales started declining in 07. Dealers started closing shop as 07 progressed, and 08 was when it got real ugly.

As far as the rest of this CC > all stuff, meh. This is the exact same crap I would hear from customers that went to the Nautique dealership before my shop. Whatever. Malibu, CC and MC all make a solid product and it's usually the service department makes or breaks the experience. Everyone has their bad apples.

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Classy
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PostPosted: Feb 19, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scott a, That is very true. The dealer you work will is just as important, if not more important than the brand of boat you purchase.
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mojo
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PostPosted: Feb 19, 2010 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just don't go to baws
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mojo
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PostPosted: Feb 19, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and like i mentioned, the experiences i've had with post 96 mc's has been awful. the experience i've had with 80's+ nautiques has been awesome.
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