the real rider owned vs. corporate owned thread

[TYLER**]

i know that there are alot of threads about this already...well most of them turn into this. so this is the real place to argue your opinions, i do hope it won't get out of hand though

all of this is for a reasearch paper for school for which my thesis is

How has the controversy of rider owned vs. corporate owned companies continued and effected the evolution of wakeskating?


and yeah i searched for it, but there were only little topics within threads that didnt really get to the point and were cluttered with other things being said

GO

[electricsnow]

I'm not sure if the controversy itself effected the evolution of wakeskating. But each side has paid some dues, so to speak, regardless of intentions.

Big companies like hyperlite (in any industry) are the ones that can actually "spread the word." yes, their early wakeskates still suck, and yes, one could debate that they're still behind the curve when it comes to smaller, more creative companies. But having people like byerly and grubb promote wakeskating has helped wakeskating, whether you want to admit it or not. I still have buttloads of respect for brian grubb. He's one of the nicest guys and he promotes wakeskating better than any force-feeder on this site.

I guess one other thing about the "larger" company thing is that they allowed cassette to stay in business when wakeskating was still at its lowest point.

On the flip side, a lot of the great/innovative ideas (that hold water) have come from the smaller companies. I dont' think it's just becuase they're small. I think it's becuase of the guys that are behind the operations, and the fact that they really care about what they're doing.

so in my opinion (unless I'm missing something) it's not so much the controversy that has allowed wakeskating to evolve. It's more about the interactions between them, which happen in any industry. But that's just me.

EDIT: Or, I suppose you could mention a sort of catch-22 in early wakeskating. Companies like hyperlite and LF can spread the word due to their size and clout in the industry, but on the other hand, since they really didn't *get* wakeskating and didn't believe in it the same way that guys like messer and thomas did (among others, for sure), the put out some sort of half-assed, shoddy products that really didn't lend themselvs toward board progression.

And the thing is, these companies could have tried to make a better product, but they really didn't get it. Then you have thomas' old boards and messer did what he could for wakeskating, and did his best to make some high quality shizzle. And you know, they were smaller and didn't have the resources that the other guys did. So there's another difference between the two of them...

[electricsnow]

I'll just put this in a separate post, but it's possible that the whole kent monopoly/uncreative spirit amongst some companies has inspired some in the wakeskate market to get involved. I don't know a lot about what inspired satellyte to get involved, but now you have a good man behind omen wakeskates who will fit in nicely, based on his ideas, passion, and intentions.

Obviously, the shortcomings of others inspire others to take an idea and try to make it better. So maybe you could run with an idea like that, as far as this little battle affecting wakeskating.

[TYLER**]

its not just about the effect of the evolution, its also about the continuing of the evolution but yeah thanks that just gave me like a page more.

[integrity640]

whats the deal with kent monopoly?

[Catalyst]

just because kent owns the company doesnt mean they have creative control over the companys. Tony finn still hand shapes liquid forces wakeboards and im pretty sure he wouldnt go through all that trouble if he didnt have a love for the sport and product design. In terms of wakeskating i sorta view hyperlite and rocs as tape versus beta. BOth have really good ideas and eventualy one will take over however they both have different visions with there designs and eventually one will succeed. I have absolutly no beef with hyperlite and to be honest i tend to find rocs to be hypocritical at variouse times in there strive to be so different

[SleuCrew]

electricsnow, First off thanks for the compliment "kinda blushing over here" I think you pretty much covered what was he was asking for and i really dont have much to add to that.

I can speak for myself and Omen and say what drives me is taking wakeskating to new places... and making boards that are going to allow riders to take things to a new level. This may seem somewhat selfish but a good part of why i started this company was for myself... there are things that i see possible and want to try on a wakeskate that you dont see people really doing right now... I get inspired driving down the road everyday. Wether it be driving home next to the river and its totally flat out or the granite fountains of downtown Portland that i want sooo bad to slide, and im going to attempt soon enough.

I can only speak for myself, but if i can sell enough boards to support my company and a great progressive team and boards that make people stoked to ride. i am totally happy and content... I will have achieved everything i want from this company.

This is what i believe separates the rider owned companies from the "other guys." For myself and a few others we care more about giving to the wakeskate community and not just reaping profits from a new growing market... Its about having the heart and believing in something greater.

Catalyst, I can only speak for myself, but the only thing i really strive for is to create a truly durable kick ass product that will support its self and people having FUN with wakeskating... the politics suck, but thats just part of the industry.

Ohh and much respect to Tony Finn, but the only thing he is shaping is the rut in his leather office chair. Jimmy Redmond shapes LF's boards... and is a awesome shaper.

[electricsnow]

no problem sleu live crew, no problem...

And your second to last sentence is probably one of the funniest things i think I've ever read!

as a wakeboard shaper, I really respect jimmy. And as a promoter, I respect tony (for putting in his time, much like jason messer and thomas). However, I"m not all that psyched about what they put out after their break with cassette, and how they treated thomas. But I've said this already. Goood DAY! (like paul harvey)

[Catalyst]

SleuCrew, haha i new i got those names mixed up but you get what im saying

[TYLER**]

so what do you guys think of the difference of riders for corporate and ROCs


thanks for all this and in addition you might find a quote of your own in a book

[kento911]

I think when you reall ybreak down ROC vs corp riders there reall yis no defining line, I mena each rider is aproduct of his own merit, If Grubb rode for Integ hed still get picked on for being a pretty boy, and no matter where D hamp rode hed still have a sick style, the one thing I do think it affects is other peoples views towards the legitimacy of a company, I mean the fact that Byerly rides for Hype lends alot of credibility to them they wouldnt normally have (from a resale standpoint), where as Integrity doesnt have any household names, no offence to Erich or Ryan, or Josh Smith, or anybody for that matter, but people just like to know that a Shaun Murray or a Parks Bonifay rides there board, it gives them confidence in the brand, because they were at the X games or they can do a double half cab mobe as illogical as that is. . . . I know its the same in wakeskating mainly because of the amount of people that have transferred over from wakeboarding. . but as far as people I dont see where riding for a ROC or Corp company reallly affects your riding. . . but to play devils advocate here. . . it does seem that the lack of ad dollars for smaller companies seems to push the riders to innovate a little more to get their name up in lights

[TYLER**]

kento911, your last sentence is really what i meant, like how do you think the riders think of it, and what do you see as their motivation to do _______

your right though and thanks

yeah i could ask some or the riders im talking about, and i will, but i also want to know what normal people that just love the sport think

[electricsnow]

It's hard to say if it's ad dollars or not. For one, I think erich, josh smith, thomas horrell and jason messer just have really unique minds when it comes to board design and creativity. From speaking to most of these guys, they seriously loved wakeskating and they wanted to help it become a reality. They're true riders, and they are true boardsmen...I honestly think that plays a HUGE factor in their product development.

Or, like jimmy redmon. He's a rider, and he's been a creator since he was a young pup. He used to make his own skateboards when he was young...I dont' remember his progression into wakeboards...I cant' remember if he made surfboards or not. But that guy KNOWS how to shape a board...I think his ideas are amazing.

One other thing to consider (which a wise wakeskater once taught me, so this is not my idea) is that when people invent stuff, who are they going to go to to get their $$$? They're going to go to the largest company. That's why companies like hype have some of these "cutting-edge" designs.

And with regards to kento's comment about integrity, their team and current style is almost perfect and nsync (holla!!) haha, ok, but seriously, names like "josh smith" and "erich schmaltz" (or for me, aron gore--what?) will mean a lot to someone who's fully "in the scene" and is into the "underground stuff" (for a lack of better terminology). And I think that it's largely those people that will respond to integrity and what they're all about. Obviously, the word is spreading and I don't know what these new buyers know about two legends that help comprise the integrity family (sorry to kiss ass, but they mean a lot to me from a wakeboarding standpoint)...but you know....wait, where am I?

Or, if you're going to delve further, you'd hear derrick seaman (sorry for the spelling if it's wrong) and you'd immmediately think "sweet water pontoon, pulling his friend to land the first v-flip and frontside flips behind his boat, creative dude, etc" Ahh, so yeah, the team definitely has merrit, you'd just have to be "in the scene" ((sipping my sweet ass drink) Could I BE anymore exclusive??) for them to really mean somthing.

So, that was a lot and I dont' know if it made sense...but you know, regardless I'll be here sippnig my exclusive drink sitting in my high chair looking down on my minions...yo.

_____________________________________________________________

EDIT: Ok, one other thing to consider with these ground-breaking ideas and who's who is the profit margin each company works with. Hyperlite isn't going to go over the deep end and make a sweet super duper high end deck with the best materials because they'd cost too much. Integrity, on the other hand, believes in what they do and they're willing to take these chances to make the best deck they can (as do other companies, I'm sure). Maybe someone else can explain that better, but profit margin will definitely have an effect on the raw materials, production and the end product.

[kento911]

TYLER**, well in that case I think that essentially it is the ad dollars although I agree all the truely innovative ides are coming from the smaller companies in thsi industry I think the innovativeness of the boards actually makes a bigger difference to the new guy not the pro, any guy with a promodel out right now can clown on a CWB lucky if need be, what I think these new innovative boards do is let newbs start with a broader spectrum of posibilities, not to take away from anybodies product, but you all know what your favorite pro is capable of. . . the one difference I see in board design is the increase in durability, basically Integ, and Omen (when they drop) are the only ones reppin that, and I think you guys will see in the very near future why that will be a big determinant in whos company has riders doin gthe leading edge shizzle. . at least if I have anything to say about it

[electricsnow]

Kento, I'd have to agree with you on the durability front. I know there are some on here (including myself) that don't necessarily need/want/whatever a board that will last forever, but you know....a week won't cut it (as in, how long a board will last). But like with vance (as an example) he based his most current purchase on the fact that he won't need to buy a board for a few years. So durability is definitely playing a role in purchases right now.

Quite frankly, I can hardly wait to see what the omen skates look like. (you know I wish you the best sleu!) I'm busting over here...

[SleuCrew]

I really believe durability is key, Everyone knows that this sport is about talent and skill... either you have it or you dont. Just because you buy someone's pro model, its not going to make you ride like them. I think once i release the decks there will only be Erich and myself for the time being that will keep pushing the boundary of durability imo... and for the business end of it i dont see Integrity and myself being in direct competition in the market because we both are doing very different things, and i like that... I want to see Integrity grow just as much as my company. Erich definitely has some mad scientist in him as well as a ton of creativity and talent... The underdogs shall prevail!

electricsnow, I will tell you as well as everybody else... The shape is definitely a little different from what is out there right now, and i just really hope people give the shape a chance. I think if people give it the opportunity it deserves they will be very happy with how it rides.

[Nekkie]

slightly off topic, but the subject behind that writeup is close...

i stumbled on this the other day, and it helps put things in perspective and know why you are in that sport, and why you think so much about it, to the point of talking about it on message boards

thanks erich...

"We that ride are self expressionists and visual communicators who have been raised in a world in which the techniques and apparatus we use and investigate with are spawned and evolved from a subculture of misfits and social outcasts (surf, skate, music, art). These pioneers felt the need to break away and blaze other trails. From suburban sprawls, subway halls, train yards, far islands, green rooms, cement jungles, and our own garages. Talented, idealists, artists, and athletes, for the love of inner solace that comes from these black arts. Exchanged by the progression of the self thru often times painful trial and error. Courage and Achievements set the bar for self/others to conquer and raise to the next, to push on and against -- end on end, level over level. These bloody roots are fueled and pushed on by skinned knees, broken bones, and dreams. The drive within our hearts brought out of adolescent angst transforming and freeing us on to adults... giving us eyes to view and draw lines few venture or will ever see. This lifestyle binds friends and foe alike, with our own languages, spoken world wide. The process the journey emancipates and propitiate us in our rites of spring."


"There are pursuits more worthy of such dissidence and unrest, but these are our own boundaries and fronts to explore and realize. Many cultural interventions, social marketing campaigns, books, magazines, exhibitions, educational tools, television programs, films all tools to prove our points and in turn now work against all that it originally stood for and against. We are a new demographic -- a statistical chart hung on corporate walls -- just a number, numbered and checked."

"I propose a reversal... a new priority in favor of a more useful, lasting and democratic form of communication -- a mind shift away from product marketing and toward the exploration of self and production of a new kind of meaning one that can't be bought or sold. The scope of debate is bounding and grayed... most will scoff at I say out of fear of themselves, shrinking and conforming; we must expand and free. Consumerism is running uncontested; it must be challenged by other perspectives expressed, in part through the visual languages and resources of design and conquer, adapt and destroy, lets bring back that which it originally once stood for. The cultural decline of our sports is self mockery, and is now becoming a crock pot or marketing soup which cares only for the fisters who want to spoon your cash. I say move beyond this -- push past, pick up and step back... look at our history and respect our founders’ intentions. The original attitude and drive would be spitting in the face of these fat cats. Let’s repair the foundation our forefathers made... adopt a DIY (do it yourself) attitude and know your own spirit’s reward. Bring on your own steez... follow your own dreams, or just assimilate and drive the global market bringing our Art form down with it. This is not some Punk movement, or an Anarchist's soap box, or even a marketing ploy... I ask only to search within... draw your own lines and set your own place."

"Freedom... Progression... Self Awareness... Unbreakable Spirit. Here or there -- question everything everywhere, especially the inane ramblings this manifesto brings. If you find nothing here, find it elsewhere but never stop looking and never give up. This is about life."

-Erich Schmaltz

nuff said, k thx bye

[Greg T]

When I bought my byerly 2 or 3 years ago it was all based on durability. I contemplated getting a kampus swing cause I really like the idea of that shape. But when it came down to it, I hadnt heard anything about how well they held up. I had heard about other wood skates so I just compared it to them. So I didnt want to risk buying a board and then having it fall apart after one summer or buying a board and having to sand off the graphics and re-seal it and stuff. That just wasnt something I wanted to deal with.

I dont have the money to buy a board every year and at the time, hyperlite were the only non-wood skates being made, that I knew of anyway. And, on top of that, people were saying very good things about the board. So it was an easy decision at the time and I am still happy with it.

In the next year or so I will be looking for a new skate, depending on how much I get out to ride this summer. When I start looking, durability will be a major factor, and it appears that this time around I will have more choices which is very nice.

[skatepunk]

I'm usually more for the small guy but Hyperlite has done some good, how many of the Hyperlite bashers on this site like the OWC?

It wouldnt be there without hyperlite