Speculation, prediction, and everything in between.

Jake S · Backside 180 Joined: 29 Dec 2010 Posts: 683 City: SLC

electricsnow, i would agree with wakemitch, and add that i think it is a trick that is not done everyday, not something that is easy to setup etc. - like a mega ramp, you can't just go out and skate a mega ramp everyday (unless your burnquest i guess.. ) i don't know if i would consider a flip a stunt, it might not be my favourite thing to see thrown down, but i don't think its a stunt.

WERDna · Backside 180 Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 541

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10735 City: Jefferton

I guess that said, i disagree with the whole stunt thing. I've never really wanted to see a flip on a wakeskate because it doesn't necessarily interest me, but there are people who like to challenge themselves, and those people may want take their riding in that direction to learn backflips. To me, a backflip is no more "stunty" than a foot plant or that shuv through the barrier that reed did. Neither of those tricks are common place in wakeskating, and both require specialized conditions in order to do them, perhaps even more specialized than a flip, seeing that all you need is a wake to do a flip (we're not talking about "kickers" here). But the latter two are more skate influenced, and it's like people are afraid to like anything that doesn't have a hard core skate influence. And I form that opinion from at least 10 years of debate on this subject.

Further, who's to say the people who want to learn a flip are doing it for the masses? I could see dieter doing one (as someone might have mentioned), and you know damn well he'd make it look insane. It's like his batwing type things. I'd never imagine seeing one of those on a wakeskate but he took something wakeboardy and made it look insane on a wakeskate. dieter is bad ass.

Anyway, backflips have been done all over on a skateboard, and flips are prevalent in every single boardsport and not only do most of them look bad ass, I can't think of any that aren't respected, or ruined a boardsport to its core.

Obscura · Faceplant Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 37

knox · Kickflip Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 4693 City: Gainesville

Obscura, thanks for your input.

electricsnow, I agree that it is very challenging, and I agree that the person who eventually lands one won't be doing it for "the masses."

The difference between wakeskating and say skateboarding or snowboarding is that those sports are very much considered to be their own thing. In the eyes of your average Joe, wakeskating is wakeboarding's little brother. We have to deal with our association to wakeboarding in a way that is impossible to avoid, because most people don't understand how different the two sports really are. In my mind, the future of an independent wakeskating involves moving away from wakeboarding as much as possible, that's my opinion. I want to see a legitimate wakeskating magazine someday, I want to see the sport grow, but I don't see that kind of growth occurring under the sheltering wing of wakeboarding. To the public, I think a flip on a wakeskate would be another association to our big brother. A skateboarder who does a flip isn't going to be compared to a snowboarder (very much), because the two are radically different. If a flip on a wakeskate was landed, many parallels would be drawn to wakeboarding.

Honestly, I think a flip on a wakeskate will look sick. (If Dieter does it, even better) It seems intensely difficult to do, and I will have a lot of respect for the person who stomps one. The only reason I oppose it, is because of what it will do to the people who don't know wake. I don't think it would be a stunt, but I think that the non-wake world might.

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10735 City: Jefferton

I think more than one trick would (or does) tie wakeskating to wakeboarding. All I can say is this industry is small (smaller than I ever understood). Most shops carry a wide spectrum of "water boards" (which probably help pad sales, especially when you think of profit margins), tube sales help some companies produce wakeskates, some wakeboard companies sponsor some of our best wakeskaters, sometimes we participate in the same contests (not always boat contests), some companies sponsor both wakeboarders and wakeskaters, all while we share the same water ways and pulls, maybe even at the same time (cable, boat and winch). And I don't say this like it's a bad thing, but almost any wakeskate specific company has really struggled in terms of professionalism, and I'm not sure how many of them can really treat their riders like professionals. I only say that to illustrate the struggle some brands are trying to overcome, and that things are not "gravy" for wakeskating.

And while your average joe might consider wakeskating to be wakeboarding's little brother, they're learning otherwise and speaking with their money by buying a wake surfer instead of a wakeskate. I was really surprised to hear people like silas and bill porter mention how wake surfers sell better than wakeskates. To me that's super disappointing, and I don't think that's what anyone expected years ago (or even now I would not have expected that), because if anything seemed less "serious" (from a passionate point of view, with focused people trying to push something), wakesurfing seemed that way. But I for sure was wrong. I should have known better when that crappy level 10 mag became a wakesurfing publication.

That said, I still don't think a flip is going to ruin wakeskating. If your "average joe" can't handle learning a shuv and favors a wake surfer, I am not sure that doing a flip is going to sway that many of them towards a wakeskate, though I'm sure it will impress them because going upside down always does that. And I think you sell wakeskating short when you think its future is so strongly determined by one trick and how it's perceived (which may not even be correct, because it's your perception on how this trick will be received by the average joes, vs. how these average joes will actually perceive it).

texasT · Posted: Dec 07, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject:

My .02

If its possible for someone to do a new 'trick' then I want to see it. I like to see progression even if it's not something people will do every time they go out, I want to see something new.

It kindof reminds me of knee drops. Are you going to do one in a contest for points? Probably not. But can it bring the stoke? Most definitely.

wakemitch · Posted: Dec 07, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject:

Someone posted this on wakeworld and I thought it was very interesting. It is like this discussion about doing a flip, but its about pro snowboarders' opinions on triple flips

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7252380

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10735 City: Jefferton

wakemitch, I'm curious how would you re-apply that video in this discussion, since nobody has even done a flip on a wakeskate (and you really aren't going to huck it like you would on a snowboard), and we don't have the contest exposure and sponsor pressure that would drive that sort of desperation/progression. Are you saying, to each his own? Or are you still saying that flips are bad for wakeskating?

Bamalurker · Posted: Dec 07, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject:

I think if a flip is done on a wakeskate it will just be something else to add to a long list of things that make riding strapped seem fruity.

disco hippo · Posted: Dec 07, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject:

[quote="POPTART"]I have a feeling Im going to look like this after Ride Amoung Us

hahahaha

Travis, Marcus you guys are crazy good i love riding with you guys it pushes me to ride so much!
I like cableparks (Mccormicks) i think they help expand the sport, but dont like them in videos as much.

wakemitch · Posted: Dec 07, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject:

electricsnow, I thought the video applied since it shows how people have opinions about where they want to see a sport going.
I think the flip should be done, but I wouldnt want it to be the new focus of wakeskating. And I can imagine that when its done it will be all over the wake industry in terms of coverage and would get move of the year, even if someone did a kickflip back tail to back big out (which would be sick!!) that same year

Im kind of losing where I was going with everything and probably should have shut up, haha. because honestly, I love what is going on in wakeskating right now: maneuvers, progress, the riders, community, and the industry. Wakeskating is in good hands, and the right things will happen

RISE-WITH-THE-FALLEN · Pop Shuvit Joined: 13 Apr 2006 Posts: 128 City: austin

I want to see more people (myself included) work on flicking flip tricks better.

I love when you can see someone's skateboard ability translate into their wakeskating... that skateboard style is what its all about!!!

cheapskate · Backside 180 Joined: 09 Sep 2008 Posts: 1424 City: Baytown

RISE-WITH-THE-FALLEN, Oh shizzle, you just started a whole new debate Neutral

WERDna · Backside 180 Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 541

RISE-WITH-THE-FALLEN, Style Criticism does not dwell between Speculation and Prediction. So keep your opinions on what you think someone else's style should be to yourself...and i'd rather not everyone work toward the same style.

Not everyone skateboards that wakeskates.

cheapskate · Backside 180 Joined: 09 Sep 2008 Posts: 1424 City: Baytown

WERDna,

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10735 City: Jefferton

cool wakemitch. I just wanted to understand what your thoughts were on that video in relation to this flip debate. The only reason I even bothered debating this (or whatever) is because I was one of those people who thought a flip didn't need to be done on a wakeskate, and it was a wakeboarding maneuver, blah blah blah. It was seaman and poopy pants who always thought always and respected the difficulty of doing a flip on a wakeskate, which I think they are totally right about.

So my point was just to try and encourage different thinking. Even though I don't hold my breath to see a flip, I can respect someone wanting to challenge themselves and bring out the best in themselves, as well as learning something new and trying and push some boundaries. Flipping likely won't be a major direction pushed by a lot of riders, but people like and need to explore. And I can respect that because I see my riding tendancies cross over into my daily life and vice versa (ie. work ethic, continuously learning, how you accept challenges, how you do your work, be it your way and in a way that makes you proud, or simply doing it just to do it, etc.) That might be a bit far for some but whatever. I can say all of that character stuff is a major reason I'm thankful for wakeskating in my life.

johnnyk · Posted: Dec 08, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject:

I believe that anything we can see in a skate video can be landed on a wakeskate, cause there's always that kook out there, but in my eyes it is all about the style the rider has. Regardless of the trick, there is going to be the guy that can do it, then there's going to do it and make it look like beautiful art.

I think the groms in general are going to explode within the next couple of years, with the growth of cable parks and the winch.

This is going to be a rad year as far as videos go. WM, Remote, and Integ (from my understanding) are all going full length. This is something i'm extremely stoked on. Full lengths from individual companies. This shows how much our sport is growing.

I would like to see more of that good stuff the Sub has been serving out for a year strong. Crazy Eyes

kornhouse · Posted: Dec 09, 2011 9:21 pm Post subject:

The Chetty Thomas and the Uptown Kickdown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKSRB3nF1Bc

parm · Posted: Dec 10, 2011 5:12 am Post subject:

kornhouse, uptown kickdown is a fakie/nollie trick. Lets not start that debate Laughing