winch

Catalyst · Backside 180 Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 736 City: Kelowna

im sorry to say but i think one of your best bet is to deal with your private matters ie arguing patent laws and stuff to yourself. All its doing is portraying an image of a money hungry company. ITs sorta like correct craft and the tower. I think to keep people from hating your company and whatnot you should only answer the questions that affect immediate sales. ie purchasing frames. But yeah keep up the good work cause atleast your trying to make something of yoursef in these industries.

Subvert · Ollie Joined: 15 Sep 2003 Posts: 77 City: Atlanta

I figure I'll weigh in on this one too, everyone else has.
I've spoken with the Winch a number of times and building these is no easy task, I think we all know that, though. I also think one reason for the comments about legal involvement, on his behalf, is he's poured a ton of time, effort, money and dedication into this project and other people saying that they're going to undercut him and sell it themselves is a hit in the nuts. If someone came out and told me that after all the hard work and money we've invested in the magazine, they were going to make one and sell it for less, I'd be sooooo pissed. I think he's being defensive for a good reason.
I also think that this talk of making your own is upsetting as well. He wants to make a product and sell it. That's O.K. I know how much these cost and they are using quality products to ensure that this doesn't blow up or hurt anyone and will also last for the consumer. Don't worry, this product like most others will get cheaper. We are discussing the coast of proto-type models, those are always going to be the most expensive. Once he gets hooked up with an engine company and begins to buy them in bulk and starts buying parts in large quantities, the price will drop. Also, when these become produced in assembly line fashion the work time will reduce, i.e. making the labor cheaper. I think everyone who wants one will see these things hit a price that they find reasonable. It will just take time. I mean, imagine buying a car when there were only two in the world and they weren't even really finished designing them, it would be crazy to think people could begin buying them at a cost efficient manor. So, give them a break and a little time, these things are going to be in the hands of the "big kids" (by that I mean people with more money than us) for a while. We'll all get a turn. With that said, I can't wait to buy one for the magazine when we can. Best of luck to you guys!

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10735 City: Jefferton

Catalyst, thewinch was explaining how patent laws not only protect the winch, but the parts that compose it. He actually did a great job of explaining it and quite frankly, does not sound money hungry at all. You're missing the meat of the post by worring about his patent comment--he does have some interesting information in his post if you give it a chance.

To subvert and thewinch--nice posts (both were valuable and informative).

kyle · Posted: Jan 29, 2004 10:47 am Post subject:

you dont expect someone to make a magazine and sell it for less? it is pure competition, if someone wants to make a cheaper winch, let them. personally, for $1500, it seems a little steep and kinda takes away the point of it, id rather buy a cheap jet ski

hypo · Pop Shuvit Joined: 19 Sep 2003 Posts: 140

MAP · Faceplant Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 14 City: Miami

Ladies and Gentlemen!!!! Do not knock it before you've tried it. I've seen people of all ages, sizes, and skills get pulled by The Winch, including me! It's not only an amazing invention but also a lot of fun. It takes wakeskating to whole new level! And what I mean by that is think of all the new possibilities; downtown fountains, hotel creeks, etc etc. Every obstacle you hit will be another adventure. Would you want your life on the line because your Winch fell apart in the middle of a fountain gap?

Subvert and The Winch said it best. There is a lot more to it then you think. They are trying to build the best product with quality parts that are not only safe but also durable to. There is a hell of a lot of torque involved in pulling a 220llb rider out of the water 400 ft away in deep water. Do you understand how fatal it can be if you don't engineer this product to the utmost? Think about it. Do you think parachute companies, gun manufactures, motorcycles companies, etc.etc, are going to try to produce a product that could possibly fail in the middle of there designed action? Furthermore, would you even attempt to build one of these products without the proper parts, planned out design, and professional engineering skill? No right... So don't knock the The Winch and those involved. They’re trying to produce a quality product, one that is designed specifically for wakeskating, well thought out, and built with not only quality parts but also professional engineering.

Another point Subvert made was, these are the first prototypes. There is reason for the cost. Do any of you understand the dynamics involved in inventing and designing a new product? No one knows about your product at first, so the orders aren't coming left and right. Thus, you don't have the advantages of mass production. Do you think the first cars, first color TV’s, and first flat screens where dirt-cheap? No, because at first they build on a per order basis. As the comany grows they hook up with an engine company and eventually have there own warehouse, producing the frames and parts from scratch. As per the Engineering student who commented and all others; when you begin to design and test your premature knock off version of The Winch, you will soon realize the importance of not only the quality of your workmanship but the important in purchasing quality products. You'll end up spending more time and money then if you would have buying The Winch.

I hate to break it to you guys…but your weed eater engines, dad’s lawnmowers, grandmothers scooter, little brother s go-pad isn’t going to cut it, so please give it back to them before they rat you out to Mommy. Think of the engines that are used on our everyday pulls. Jet Ski’s have 135hp plus engines; ski boats have 275hp plus engines… Obviously there is a lot more weight involved, because jet skis and boats are compensating the weight with stronger engines specifically designed for high demand in torque. The Winch is engine is specifially designed for the torque involved pulling a rider out of the water form 400ft out. This is exactly what the The Winch and The Rewind Company is trying make us all understand. But since most of you don’t have engineering or physics degrees, or just plain common sense(from what I've read in the replies), you just don’t comprehend. I don’t know about any of you, but I’m not sponsored. I don’t get boats or skis for free. And I definitely know none of you are riding for Mobil or Shell, so gas isn’t free either. SO what makes you think a boat or a ski is cheaper then $1,400 a year? After the cost of purchase, you still need to pay for gas, registration, and insurance. You and I know how much that gas bill is every month, multiply that by 12 and tell me what you get. My point exactly…It cost the winch about 2 bucks to fill up, and that’ll last you, no joke, more then a week of solid riding!

And for all those who think The Winch is some money hungry rich inventor, you’re sadly mistaken, and quite frankly out of line. Don’t judge a book by its cover. Tony is a class act guy. Those of you who know him will agree with me when I say he’s a very smart, hard working law student who is using the little money and time he has to invent a product he and many others believe is an amazing invention. He’s been working his ass of on this and spending every last dime. So respect and recognize because you shouldn’t knock it until you try it.

Thanks to Subvert and Electricsnow for your great responses, well thought out and to the point.

ollieshuvitz · Posted: Jan 29, 2004 2:24 pm Post subject:

Very, very well said MAP. I dont think I could have said too much better myself. "The Winch" is not a punk as previously refered to; sry that just really irritates me how people can talk sh|t about people they dont know at all.

Catalyst · Backside 180 Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 736 City: Kelowna

how long does the pull go for and how long does it take to get ready to go again each time?

TL · Faceplant Joined: 26 Nov 2003 Posts: 33 City: Christchurch

thewinch, does the winch pull at a constant velocity? Not asking for specific details (I'm presuming that this is one of the major issues and hence costs you've had to overcome, and probably an important part of any patent) but have you sorted the issue of increasing power requirement as the rope reels in, ie increasing torque and rope velocity as the effective radius increases, automatically (without the operator dropping the revs)?

Secondly, has the design of the winch been on a trial and error basis or did you calculate approximate torque/power requirements before you started building?

Good luck, I look forward to the winch appearing in future videos/magazine photo shoots and hopefully in as yet "unskated" waterways everywhere.

galenone · Faceplant Joined: 28 Sep 2003 Posts: 36

alright i agree with the winch and its abilities. we finished our first trial and used it as a pully just in the snow and it sucked hard. props.

wakeriderof87 · Frontside 180 Joined: 02 Oct 2003 Posts: 495 City: cen fla

haha, thats hilarious

Brett Leadley · Posted: Jan 29, 2004 8:08 pm Post subject:

I remember as soon as I read that article I knew there was no way they could market this product for anywhere near 100 bucks- think about the components alone nevermind the engine. $1400, let's see, that's nearly what me and my friends pay each year just for a BOAT SLIP.

Now if you live on or near a lake and own a boat/waverunner or whatever you may not need a winch.

But think about what this product means to everyone else out there- I know I could entertain myself for years hitting homemade rails in the swamp in the woods behind my house. I will definately be buying one in the near future.

thewinch · Ollie Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 64

I forgot to answer one of the questions I saw yesterday,"what going on with the single man winch"?
I actually put that one on hold until this two man floods the market. The one man operation will work we've got the technology to build it, we already have the frame almost done.The single man version is all about the frame! Thats where the technology is, it uses no electric, no servos, nothing but frame. To answer the question though its next.

As for the winch's place in the market, it wasn't meant to get rid of boats or jetskis it was meant to get into places you can't get jetskis or boats into.
Personally I would rather ride behind "The Militia" than the winch when I feel like wakeskating in a lake.

When Thomas and I designed and built the 1st winch we thought for sure there was a way to build this thing for a few hundred dollars but when we started adding reciepts up this thing was over $500 in no time and it still didn't work. The shot in the "Sfumato" video when thomas is jumping the gap look at the reel vibrating up and down, how long do you think those $75 bearings lasted? Try like 3 pulls.

As for making the winch cheaper,what can I do I can't build them for free and break even on each one, whos going to do that? Almost every product you buy the manufacture always makes at least 100% profit on it or its deemed noprofitable, I wish I was able to make 50% profit on this thing but I'm not. Instead I'm selling them at a little above the break even point which is not going to make me any money, but will keep the comapny making more of them for you.
I think once the retail shops get a hold of them they are going to jack the prices up and I will not be able to sell them to the public anymore. I know it sucks but maybe I will be able to sneak one out here and there.

Anyways we are going to fly to Orlando Saturday to finish filming some new Alliance flick with the new high performance winch more RPMs!!!!

sim · Pop Shuvit Joined: 10 Dec 2003 Posts: 219 City: Thorpe

I'm gonna stop coming onto this forum, all the talk of 'skating, the winch and rails is driving me insane. The lake is frozen up, and there's an inch of cnow/ice everywhere. We've exhausted the hills of snow, so now I must wait for warm water. what a beach, see you in three months. dasyhcffrja\tjnm;ba/;mjhbkf*uck!!
anyone wanna fly me to florida for a week or two? I can afford gas, just about!!
________
Yamaha Zuma

electricsnow · cassette Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 10735 City: Jefferton

Map, great post.

Thewinch, thanks for always coming back and answering everyone's questions (you have some great replies, by the way).

ollieshuvitz · Posted: Jan 30, 2004 7:12 pm Post subject:

We were so close to getting 100 posts on here! Come on, five more!!!

Catalyst · Backside 180 Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 736 City: Kelowna

No one answered my question about how long each pull usually lasts. and how long it takes to gte the thing going for each ride. ANy insight would be appreciated.

funnyfeni · Posted: Jan 30, 2004 9:55 pm Post subject:

here... chris i'll help..
sorry i havent been on here in a couple of days.. i was welding my frame together. .so far its holding pretty well. want some pics anyone Birthday

thewinch · Ollie Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 64

I knew I forgot one question last night, Each pull last like 10 seconds or more depending on how long the rope is. (10 seconds is like 300 feet of rope) This thing will pull you anywhere from like 18mph to 25mph, to jump big gaps and ollie really high you wanna be around 20-23 mph if you weigh like 190lbs. When you pull on the rope when you ollie, the boat gives alittle bit, when you pull riding behind the winch a vehicle does not give, so your ollies will be a little higher.
The cool thing about this thing is when the engine is running and your pull is done you simply take the rope and run back down to the end again without shutting anything off it has a freewheeling unit like a helicopter. When your ready get someone to squeeze the trigger and your off again. Its real easy

Again ten seconds doen't sound like Shjt but when your hitting rails or gaps or fountains or ramps, puddles I wanna try a creek.

The one I really wanna try is stupid crazy I wanna get pulled across Govenment cut in South beach from the Fisher Island side to the mainland. Its like 800feet across cruise ships go out there. Come on Electric snow lets go film it!

thewinch · Ollie Joined: 24 Jan 2004 Posts: 64

post the pics