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electricsnow
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PostPosted: Jan 27, 2004 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to come back and thank Todd for his lovely compliment:) But the confusion is my fault because I didn't catch the earlier thread with the gender typo. It really shouldn't matter anyway, but I'll take the blame.

Seriously though, after reading and thinking about this thread, I worry that the winch may become one of those things that was released too early--you know, before the public was truly ready to commit. Do you guys ever re-read your butter interview with thomas at all? I do and he mentions something about how he really has to think about what he's going to release and when, because he doesn't want a good idea to go to waste (it's quite an insightful comment). I fret, I worry, and it's not even my baby...

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Todd
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PostPosted: Jan 27, 2004 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ahem, I think the winch is great in design, application and forward thinking but the price tag scares the masses away. I can barely keep gas in my boat and a deck under my feet.
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RUSSIAN
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

electricsnow, your insight is always refreshing on this(and other) sites, But especially this one.
Todd, I agree, 1400 dollars isn't exactly the price range that would get a ton of people to buy one, I paid 1000 for my patio boat, and I can do alot more then wakeskate with it. I know the winch is designed for other uses, but I'm trying to show how that kind of money can be spent.
I personally would never buy one, I own two boats, and have access to jet ski's. But I think the concept is great, and if it could be done for less then I might consider, if I lived in an area that could justify such a purchase, the delta is 20 minutes away Very Happy Very Happy
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Catalyst
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i didnt mean to dis you The Winch (I dont know how to make bold names) i was just elaberating on the open statment you said. The winch is a really good idea if u have the means and a place to use it. I also no it would take quite a bit of money to make. I think what ticked everyone was the imagend price of 100 jumping to 1400. but no that youve cleared things up i understand why.
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Dave Barousse
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So now that we have established that the current price of the winch is out of range for some of your budgets, what do you feel would be a more acceptable price for a winch?

electricsnow summed it up by saying it was wishful thinking that this thing would cost $100. Did any of you honestly believe that? The truth is, a wakeskate alone is $200 or more these days. I saw an electric scooter at the grocery store yesterday for over $100. To think that a product like The Winch would cost anywhere under $500 is definitely wishful thinking, in my opinion.
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electricsnow
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking about this (surprise, surprise, huh?) and one thing that needs to be realized is that wakeskating will never be like skateboarding, accessiblity wise. Concaves will never be super duper cheap, although one can hope that they will improve, durability wise--And this goes for all brands because I've heard of hypes and cassettes breaking, so there's room for improvement all over. Unlike skateboarding, you do need something to pull you, whether it be a 50,000 boat, a 4-wheeler, a car, or a winch. No matter what, you will be dropping some coin in this "sport." Now, if you look at snowboarding, it isn't exactly cheap either. A nice board can cost 450.00, boots can cost 200.00, bindings can cost 150.00-250.00 (I'm not even going to start with the outerwear, gloves, goggles, board maintanence accessories, etc). And to top it off, if you live out west, a season pass can range from 800.00 to 1000.00 (the 800.00 came from mount hood meadows and the 1000.00 came from mammoth--I think it was the gold pass. Yes, I had to investigate because my midwest pass is a measly 350.00-400.00). When you add up all of those figures, a winch doesn't seem that outrageous, considering the fact that it should be a durable item and should last you a number of years and outside of the gas, it's sort of a one-time fee (or at least it's not annual like a season pass. But I still love snowboarding despite the cost).

The winch will never replace boats for most, but it is a way for people to reach seemingly unaccessible areas, and as thomas once said, it's more convenient in some instances because using a jetski is kind of a waste. Plus if you have the one man option, you could learn some more technical tricks on your own without worrying about Pi$$ing off the driver because you keep on falling. And it might make wakeskating more accessible for that one rider that might not be able to afford a boat or watercraft, and then the insurance and registration that comes along with it. With that scenario in mind, I have hope that the winch might be an option for a kid out there who's dad won't buy a boat or personal water craft, and maybe doesn't have the time to pull his kid around.

Personally, I guess I'm not too worried about the price because I know I want a winch within the next two years--right now, my health insurance is 300.00 a month so I could continue to receive treatment on my knee, so my "purse" is empty. Plus, I don't have multiple boats or a jetski to worry about (that's just an example).

Oh, with regard to my other post about the winch coming out too early, the idea is that if wakeskating were a bit more popular, presumably there would be more people that would be willing to (ahem) "pony up and drop down." Yes? But I do agree in that the winch is an amazing product for wakeskating and I am glad that it is here. Plus, it makes for some interesting video footage because you can go film at some more interesting locations, rather than riding in front of the same house on the same lake where all of the wakeboarders film, you know?

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Hawn
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

electricsnow; I have know idea why you brought up my name. If you go back and read my post (never mind I will post it again). I am not putting down the winch. In fact I said I liked the idea and I wanted to see one in person. I was just making the statment (or question) about a pat:

I think the winch is a great idea. Keep in mind I will not be building one.

Currect me if I am wrong, but if you have a pat: that just means someone can not make that object for resale. They can make one for there own use. Am I right.

That is why if someone builds there own tower for there own boat they do not have to pay CC.

thewinch; Good job on the R&D. Where there any sent to Texas yet? I would like to see one in person.
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electricsnow
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was a typo--I meant hypo (hypo, hawn, hawn, hypo--do you see where I'm coming from?) I had no intentions of bringing you into it because I didn't disagree with you. I hope you can accept my apology.

Edit: Hawn, I corrected my error, so you are in no way associated to the smut that spews forth from yours truly. Aiight...

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greg van wagnen
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

electricsnow wrote:
I've been thinking about this (surprise, surprise, huh?) and one thing that needs to be realized is that wakeskating will never be like skateboarding, accessiblity wise.


I thought this was the point of the winch?

also when is the one man winch going to come out? or is that just and idea?

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Hawn
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks I except. No prob
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suckmywake
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thewinch, if for some reason you're still listening to any of this, I have an honest, harmless little question. i thought i read something about the frame costing x number of dollars. would that mean that all those kids that say they have engines just lying around their house can simply buy a frame for significantly cheaper than the total package? that would solve a lot of the problems: your design would still be used, you wouldn't have to spend that 500 bucks on a motor and the total price would be a lot lower. this is just off the top of my head; i haven't really thought about liability, warranty, engine compatability, etc... just a thought

good luck in the future...
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Joey White
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the hard part to build would be to get it to be able to go and stop i havent seen one work in person so i dont know to much about them
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LakeErie
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thewinch you lost me on that last post, Im guessing there was some inside joke there...
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TL
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with electricsnow in that I think that the winch has been forced into the public area too early, not by rewind but by us - the wakeskating public. Sfumato (among others snippets of info) sparked our interest and we really wanted to know more about this wonderful new contraption. From what I can see the winch is still in a prototype stage, hence the prototype price tag. Anything that is custom made on a per order basis will not be cheap, hopefully when they perfect their design there will be enough interest from potential customers and potential distributors to enable more batch style production - bringing the price down below US$1000.

I feel the winch concept is more about pushing the sport than anything else, like JP Walker etc taking snowboarding to the streets, most snowboarders wouldn't (and probably shouldn't) even think of hitting 40ft rails down steps with a one foot wide, inch thick strip of snow for a landing, its all about progression.

The winch will allow people to get creative with the places that they ride. In Auckland (NZ) we have a downtown rail competition (snowboarding) with snow trucked in especially for the event - its huge and brings snowboarding to new audiences better than TV ever can, my hope is that some day there will be wakeskating rail contests in downtown areas of major cities (utilizing the winch) so that wakeskating becomes as popular as snowboarding or FMX as an "action" sport people want to watch.

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Paul
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

greg van wagnen wrote:
when is the one man winch going to come out? or is that just and idea?

thewinch, same question here.
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Catalyst
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

id be cool if they did demos with at the pr tour events. I think if people got to see it work in front of them then they would be more willing to toss 1400 on the thing. Plus it would be cool to see. Like set up a big pool and have a long flat bar for the pros to session. Thats the best way to get the message across to make people wonna buy stuff, make pros use it.
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electricsnow
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg, the winch does make wakeskating more accessible, but skateboarding will ALWAYS be cheaper and more accessible. But compared to wakeboarding, wakeskating is the (water) boardsport for the masses. Most are content to ride behind anything and not just an expensive inboard. Plus this way, people can't blame their skills on their ride (haha). Like I said, with wakeskating, you're gonna have to throw down some cash--there just isn't any way around it. I hope that makes sense--I'm not in the mood to type up a book about this...

Waterboarding, what a novel idea Smile

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Catalyst
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the closest ull ever come to having a skatepark on the water for a wakeskate is going to the cable park. its like a giant winch wich many people can use at once for the low price of whatvere admission is.
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galenone
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow. this has gone pretty far. anyhow, for those who are pissed off at me and telling me to go to other sites cause i had the nutts to stand up for myself when someone is telling me he's gonna take me to court keep crying. for those who got over it cool. i just wanted to get my point across and i think that alot of you guys understand exactly where i'm coming from. i guess once the winch gets some competition the price will be have to be pulled down. who knows i'm building mine in my engineering class possibly it'll be a hell of alot cheaper, totally different looking and i'll hook a couple of you up with it. no disrespect meant. peace.
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thewinch
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PostPosted: Jan 28, 2004 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to answer some quick questions I saw:

As for competition for the winch market here are some words of advice, before you go engineering a similar product you should see what types of model winches I have tied up for 20 years, not only do we have a watersports horizontial winch but also the vertical model thats being tested in the snow for snowboarders Its kind of like your own personal ski lift except you don't have to get out of your boots, you just get pulled uphill like almost 1000feet. You may be able to design it differently, but I have utility patents on this stuff, and design patents too, so if you did design it different you would still have to pay me a royalty fee for every one you sold.I'm not trying to be a di*k its just the law.

As for selling the winch without the engine (just the frame) I would love to do that, the frame is $275 like I said the only part on the winch that is critical is the reel and the sprocket it is very important neither one can be bought they have to be custom made.The most expensive thing on the winch is the engine, again they are specialty engines they are designed just for the winch i.e.,throttle assemblies and connecting rod assy. they are alot more beefy than a lawnmower engine. (your dads old lawnmower engine won't turn the RPM's you need)
Like I said before we do not make much money off of the winch, there is alot more to it than meets the eye, of course you can recognize alot of common parts, but its performance depends on good quality parts that cost money.
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