Fulcrum Effect, Fulcrums, and Physics

SEAMAN · Frontside 180 Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 388 City: Atlanta

I keep hearing things about fulcrums, mostly from people who are talking about the design of, or designing, the bi-level.

Would someone please pay attention in Physics!!! Pure ignorance is being spewed.

PLEASE do some research about levers and stop going off what some "cool" company might have said. It might actually help some board designs.

SEAMAN

Mr. Top Hat · Dead Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 5818

SEAMAN, well i get what your saying.

Wc · Ollie Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 76 City: Paris

SEAMAN, I don't get it.
I've just learned what fulcrum is meaning because wakeshredder speaks about it in kevin calvez's bi level thread.
Could you please light up our brains?
Hope akonite is not one of those "cool" company you're thinking about.
We never refered to fulcrum...

Michael Manzer · Posted: Dec 11, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject:

when a wise man speaks....one should listen...

follow his advice and research it.
physics is some neat sh*t.

TWG · Kickflip Joined: 25 Sep 2006 Posts: 3258

ahh boner kill, i dont want to learn new stuff Cool

skatefilly · Posted: Dec 11, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject:

well that is the basic idea, where you create pop from the disighn of the bilevel shape, so physics or not the bilevel does create more pop due to its design, Im not a physics teacher but i have ridden the bilevel and it speaks for its self.....

jonnyUTAH · Backside 180 Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 1951

I can only help with Quantum Mechanics and modern physics. When it comes to classical mechanics, I am of no use.

If you ask me about how the bi-level works on the quantum scale....I can tell you that it is one giant mystery.

SEAMAN · Frontside 180 Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 388 City: Atlanta

spadedout41 · Frontside 180 Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 441

vedy vedy interesting ......

skatefilly · Posted: Dec 11, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject:

just wondering have you ridden a bi-level? because the flex not only allows for pop but allows you to land on the board and the flex in the board allows you to land on impact and not get throwin off. I do think that you have a good point with the steep kick tails, but that only goes so far.

Bad Luck · Posted: Dec 11, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject:

skatefilly, seaman is correct about everything he said, but he was only talking about pop. you have a good point about the flex being an aid on landings, thats definitely one of the things i liked most about my old bi-level.

skatefilly · Posted: Dec 11, 2006 11:06 pm Post subject:

i know he has me beat on the whole physics stuff, but just watching the bilevel ride that is what i have gathered. So i probably just put it all together and that is what i have concluded. so just my two cents.

skatefilly · Posted: Dec 11, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject:

and im not hating at all, just my opinion guys

kyle13 · Posted: Dec 12, 2006 12:19 am Post subject:

SEAMAN, good topic

Food for thought.

CapriSunAllNatural · Posted: Dec 12, 2006 12:44 am Post subject:

Seems like Integrity is the "cool" company at this site, and everyone is buying what your saying...

I hate to say this since i can't actually quote it or find where he said it, but i'm pretty sure i heard Sleu say somthing about working with differnt flex points or somthin on his new skates and having a super stiff skate might not mean the most pop...

SEAMAN · Frontside 180 Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 388 City: Atlanta

Skatefilly,
You have a really good point about the landings.  It is definitely much more forgiving on landings, esp. when you don't have perfect foot placement.  But, that also means that when edging, flipping, or shuving the board, it becomes less responsive.  Does that matter? Probably not too much because its very insignificant amount and I'm sure its more beneficial for wakeskating to have it forgiving.

My beef is with people using incorrect terms to push their product.  The kicktail is a lever, not a fulcrum.  This might sound like I'm arguing semantics, but its more than that.  Cassette brought this "great" design to wakeskating and people have been borrowing from them (as always).  Everyone thinks its so great, without really understanding why. Since they used the "Fulcrum Effect" term, they obviously didn't have a clue. Nothing about the tail snapping off the board helps it get more pop.  It might make it stick to your back foot more, but its also taking away from energy you could be using to push the back of the board into the water, creating more pop.

A solution for us to meet in the middle is having the top deck of the bi-level super stiff, maybe even NOT WOOD.  So it can pivot around bearings, like a skateboard, but have the deck not flex, creating better leverage, but also allowing for forgiveness.  (It would also be stronger so it wouldn't break as easy.) The bearings could be vary with stiffness to allow for more response for wake jumps, or more forgiveness for beginners. Either way, when pushing on the kicktail, it would be stiff and allow the rider to push the tail deeper into the water, whic really creates pop and snap.

There is always going to be a "give and take" in board design.  I just hate that some don't even understand what the have in front of them to weigh the options.

Speaking only from design, I think the Byerly is the closest to having the right idea.  Not that it is the perfect idea, but the most correct so far.  Though, it being composite might make it that much less forgiving.  But then again, the more skill and control you have, the less forgiving it needs to be.

Before I'm done, I'd like to add one more thing that might risk hypocrisy.  Having said all that I have, board design will not help you ollie higher or kickflip better, etc. unless you have perfected it.  People always refer back to skateboarding, saying that the skateboard has reached the perfect shape.  It is not the perfect shape, design, material, etc.  There could be something better, but for years skater's have focused more on improving what they can do on the board than trying to look for something to help them.

Wakeboarding and wakeskating need this mentality more than anything because the gimmicky advertising in the industry strays the general focus of the sport.  This forum is notorious for following that thought and arguing about it.  If we worry less about what board is cool and more about how we are doing it, we'll survive.

SEAMAN

SEAMAN · Frontside 180 Joined: 14 Sep 2003 Posts: 388 City: Atlanta

Capri,
I am a supporter of Erich Schmaltz and all that he has done. That has nothing to do with this topic. And regarding my last post, I include Integrity as a "cool" company. I consider it to be in the top two with Cassette when it comes to "cool" companies being talked about unnecessarily on this site.

I hope all of this is obvous because my views don't necessarily put Integrity on the top of my list when it comes to the designs I've been speaking of. As far as your comment on Sleu and flex, my arguments have been directed towards the bi-level design. That is a different shape and a discussion for another time.

It has just made me sick to hear what people have said, not thinking for themselves, all the gossip, trash talking, etc. and I have done my fair share as well. This site needs more people to challenge their own ideas on what every aspect of wakeskating should be. Only then can we move forward and progress the sport.

SEAMAN

wakeskate77 · Frontside 180 Joined: 20 Sep 2003 Posts: 335 City: HELL

to put this whole thing in retard(wakeskater) terms

the fulcurm is the point where the board pivots on the water. The bi-level DOES allow you to bring this point back by the steepness of the kick tails. This has nothing to do with the gap in between them, actually takes away from it because its raised. Its a gimmic with false interpritations.

Ill be damned what do we have here... looks like the gate, HYPERLITE, had the fulcrum point furthest back on the board so far.

so heres where we stand. the bi level does give you fulcrum point further back on the board and a litlle springy action when you land but you add alot of weight and take away some responsiveness and what do you got? just another wakeskate. its a give/take world guys, we have now reached the point where its about the rider.

Kay-Kay · Posted: Dec 12, 2006 2:13 am Post subject:

when the board flexes doesnt it have to return to its original shape? really the energy is not lost its just stored to be used later. i have never ridden a bilevel or even seen one in person and im not to familiar with the physics surrounding wakeskating but couldnt the top deck return to its original shape while it is still in the water causing the bottom deck to be pushed deeper into the water. now obviously it will not go any deeper into the water than if there were no flex because you the downward force is the same but could the resiliency of the deck give you a quicker or snappier pop.

kejoz · Posted: Dec 12, 2006 4:56 am Post subject:

seaman-good point! i think you are right!